In this episode of The Navigator, Brian Fairhurst is joined by Tim Muindi, Treasurer of ServiceNow, who shares how ServiceNow is pursuing their goal of building sustainable wealth, funding small business creation, and driving community revitalization in Black communities through impact investing. The conversation that ensues can be considered a case study for finance professionals on how to partner with their firm’s stakeholders to put cash to work for Impact.
- Starting the journey of aligning balance sheet assets with corporate goals for diversity and social impact.
- Identifying key criteria in the search for an investment management partner.
- Prioritizing the organization’s impact goals and establishing initial portfolio allocations.
- Reflecting on the experience and identifying what, if anything, should be done differently.
- Advising treasury teams at companies looking to similarly target positive social impact with balance sheet investments.
Hello and welcome to the RBC Global Asset Management Navigator podcast. My name is Brian Fairhurst, managing Director at RBC GAM. Today I'm pleased to be joined by Tim Muindi, Treasurer of ServiceNow, a publicly traded, cloud-based platform company. In today's episode of The Navigator, we're going to be talking with Tim about how ServiceNow achieved their goal of building wealth and driving community revitalization in Black communities through impact investing.
After the murder of George Floyd in 2020, Tim felt the need to help build equitable opportunities for underserved BIPOC (Black, Indigenous, and People of Color) communities with a focus predominantly on Black communities, and he had a compelling idea to invest $100 million in black communities where the company has direct ties. Tim presented the opportunity to ServiceNow CFO and members of the board and in January 2021, the company created what they refer to as a ServiceNow Racial Equity Fund investing $100 million with RBC GAM, who manages the investment strategy on behalf of ServiceNow as a custom institutional separately managed account.
This account was created with the goal to drive more sustainable wealth creation by funding home ownership, entrepreneurship, and neighborhood revitalization within Black communities. The ServiceNow investment supports community development efforts in multiple cities across the country, focusing on facilitating loans to small businesses operating in low-income neighborhoods. In addition, I'd like to highlight the fact that recently the San Francisco Business Times recognized ServiceNow CFO Gina Mastantuono as ‘CFO of the Year’ for the Large Public Company category and Tim as ‘CFO Rising Star’. Both exceptional awards that we believe are justly deserved. Congrats on that, Tim, and thank you for joining us today.
Thank you, Brian. It's good to be with you.
We're looking forward to hearing about your experiences at ServiceNow and how your efforts are helping to increase the flow of capital to the communities that need it most. Before we get into the Q&A, though, I want to help set the stage a bit more for our listeners with a timeline.
It was late summer 2020 when we first started talking about this in earnest, in the August-September timeframe. It was a pretty tumultuous time. Wildfires were raging across California. We're both here in the Bay Area, and I recall talking frequently about how much smoke there was in the air at any given day. There was even that one day where the sun didn't rise, and we had that weird, eerie twilight glow all day. This was several months after the George Floyd tragedy.
Black Lives Matter protests were continuing across much of the U.S. and it was also eight months into the global pandemic, where by mid-August of that year, the CDC was reporting that U.S. COVID-19 deaths were exceeding 1,000 per day. So with that backdrop, let's dive into some questions. How did ServiceNow start this journey to align balance sheet investments with your corporate goals around diversity and social impact? What were the catalysts? George Floyd, clearly, others?
Yeah. So, Brian, just kind of going back to your timeline. That actually feels like it was so long ago and it's only about three years ago. But thanks for setting the stage with that. But I think as you mentioned in the intro, after George Floyd's murder in 2020, around May 2020, I know, with my family, we were sitting around watching the video and the coverage for several days.
And for some reason, it actually hit me really hard because it just seemingly happened so casually and in broad daylight. And I think it was at that point, I just began to wonder, what can I do to influence change? Right. So, you know, one of the topics that I know we've been talking about for a while was, you know, some of the kind of systemic issues that, you know, have really played a big role in the wealth disparity, especially between, you know, Blacks and whites.
And as I was researching, one of the books that I came across was The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap. And for me, that was super eye opening because it provided really great insight into a lot of the structural issues that have historically just contributed to the wealth gap. And so later on, I know we had discussions during the summertime, but I know one of the things that really, you know, really hit home for me was a report that came out in September of 2020. And this went through a process of quantifying the economic impact of Black inequality in the U.S. over the last 20 years. And that put the cost of this Black inequality at about $16 trillion over the last 20 years. And just for perspective, in 2022 the US GDP was $25 trillion. So, you can see that's a huge impact, you know, or economic opportunity that's been lost.
And then when I think about not only just the dollars themselves, but just about the missed opportunities to transform millions of Black lives. Right. And when I looked at what are some of the underlying reasons for this inequality, was mostly either lack of or limited access to capital, especially in Black communities.
And we're talking about capital for homeownership, you know, starting a business, you know, further education. Right? And so for me, this is kind of where the light bulb, I'd say went off for me where I saw a direct link between my role as Treasurer and really our focus on capital, whether it's accessing capital or deploying capital.
And so this is where I saw that opportunity to leverage a part of the ServiceNow investment portfolio to become a provider of capital to help close this racial wealth gap.
That's great background and some very sobering context about the impetus for this investment. We don't have time today to get into all the mechanics of the investment, but clearly this needed to meet some rigid balance sheet criteria while providing a competitive return for you all. And it needed to have tangible impact. I'll never forget the phrase you used when you said you were looking for “high quality impact investments”.
What would have the most impact compared to other options you were considering that either didn't go far enough or didn't align well with your liquidity needs?
Right. So it was actually a process, kind of thinking through in terms of how do we go about at least the idea that I had in terms of providing capital. And part of how we looked at our balance sheet is, you know, how do we first of all, just balance risk, but also, you know, manage a competitive return.
But in this case, it was a little bit different because I was thinking more about impact and not just impact today, but sustainable impact. Right. So when I thought about, you know, essentially how should we be thinking about this and how should we think about it differently from our regular investment portfolio. Having an impact was number one.
And then in terms of where are we going to have that impact? I know we'll talk about that in a little bit, but you know, that's how I approached it. And so the way we're going to make an impact, whether it's through, you know, through homeownership or whether it's providing affordable housing, rental housing, business loans. Right. And so those are what I thought about creating - tangible, meaningful impact that's also sustainable. Right. And so that's where I saw the opportunity to drive at least this strategy.
That's great. Talk a bit about the engagement, internal engagement around this idea, socializing it, getting buy-in. I know you and I had quite a few late evening phone calls getting you the key data points you needed to present and I think would be helpful for others to hear a bit more about that process.
Sure. You know, as I was thinking about it, just the commitment and actually using ServiceNow’s balance sheet as a commitment to, you know, to this investment, I kind of went back to one thing that always anchors me and a lot of us here at ServiceNow is we're here to make the world work for everyone. Right. And so that became my anchor point.
And so as I thought about it, you know, when I bring these ideas forward, it's got to go back to that particular purpose. Right. And so when I started formulating the idea, I could tell you that I was actually even nervous to bring it to our CFO, because that's the first person I had to sell it to.
You know, I had sleepless nights sometimes just thinking about it, like, should I do it? Should I not do it? But my gut kept telling me, it's like, this is something that you have to do. This is an opportunity and ServiceNow is really well-positioned to make an impact. Right. And so as I thought through it, you know, I put the business case and I told you, I kind of read, you know, I had read the book The Color of Money.
I had also, you know, read that report that came out in September of 2020, just talking about Black inequality and the causes of it, and then also tying it back to how do we use our balance sheet today. Right. And one of the things I thought about is like some of the securities we actually buy for our portfolios, we are actually providing capital.
And so try to frame it in that sense that in many ways we are providers of capital and this is a great opportunity for us to actually use some of our capital to really make a huge impact in a lot of people's lives. So I put my business case together and I kind of went to Gina and said, I have a great idea.
I think here's a way I think we can make an impact. And I outlined, what are the three areas? Right? And I was really thinking about it more from a wealth creation perspective. And so I really emphasized homeownership, because that's the number one way that Americans build wealth. And then when you look at in terms of there's a huge gap between, you know, Blacks who own their own homes versus whites who own their own homes, it's a huge gap.
And so I said, okay, we have we have a really unique opportunity here, to be able to make a difference, because as they build wealth and this becomes how they're able to not only fund their own education, the education of their kids and for generations, but they can also use it to start businesses. Right? You could take equity out of your home and use it to start a business or sometimes even for your own health.
You know, health care, it's expensive. And so this can be a way that they can, you know, find capital to be able to take care of some of their health issues or even some of their extended families’, you know, health care needs. So that's how I phrased it. And so I said that's probably a big chunk of it.
And then I walked her through just affordable rental housing units. Right. So you have a lot of people who either don't want to buy a home, right, but they need an affordable place that they can live and be able to take care of themselves and take care of their families. And so as I was going through that, you know, I could see it was starting to resonate with her.
And then I said, the third pillar really is thinking about just community revitalization itself. So think about this being, hey, we have, you know, families living in communities. Do they have parks? You know, what's the type of environment they're growing up in? Right. And so this is, you know, across the board, it's like it's something that actually makes a difference in a lot of people's lives.
I know it makes a big difference in mine when you're able to go out and you have a park close to you and you can just go take a walk or there's trails. Right. So all those types of things just go towards the betterment of, you know, people's lives, right, that in most cases don't get that opportunity.
And if I could just go back to just the homeownership and the equity piece of it. The one thing we had a discussion about with Gina was really thinking about how do we kind of drive more of a multiplier effect throughout our investment, right? So you think about, you know, especially when you look at some of the really underserved Black communities, you tend not to see, say, some of the big box stores.
Right? You don't have those types of anchor stores that come in and provide employment. And that's a lot of it. Like here they are living mostly in rental properties and as you’re living in a rental property, you're not doing any, you know, not doing any remodeling, right? You're not doing any of those type of projects that would attract, you know, say, one of those large home improvement stores to your neighborhood.
But the more you, you know, for people who own a home, if you're living in a neighborhood where people own homes, right, you do more of those projects. Right? And the more you do those projects, that means you attract those businesses and those businesses provide employment. And a lot of what happens here in the U.S. is a lot of our schools are funded by local property taxes.
So the value of those homes go up, right? Especially if you own the home, the value of those homes go up. And what it does now is it starts creating those multiplier effects. So you're providing employment, people are having capital to start businesses and so on. So it just kind of circulates within the community itself. So I think kind of putting that whole kind of business case together as a opportunity, I think it went a long ways in terms of getting Gina onboard.
And she was very enthusiastic about it, by the way. And so she's like, “No, let's go for it.” But the first thing we have to do obviously is get through the audit committee who has oversight essentially over all the financial activities and so we had to have the conversation with them. The board was extremely supportive and they were like, “Let's go, let's go get this done.”
And so that's when I kind of started pulling, you know, the other teams into place. So getting our D&I team and then getting a special People team, because one of the things that we had said, had proposed, like, hey, let's focus on where we have a lot of our employees, where they live and work. Let's impact those communities so that, you know, that impact is in places where we have a presence.
And so our People team was involved in terms of getting the data and, you know, an understanding of like where are our people and, you know, and then that's what we used as a target. So there's a lot of teams involved and also their Communications team right in terms of like, hey, how do we want to position this so that not only, you know, it would drive awareness, but also the impact that we're also trying to drive.
So there's a lot of coordination across the board just to be able to get this off the ground.
A lot of coordination. I want to circle back on that phrase you used - the multiplier effect - which is crucial, particularly when you're talking about how limited the amount of capital is that's already focused on these underserved communities. So creating vibrant, thriving communities is absolutely essential to have that magnifier or multiplier effect. We could cover that topic in an entirely different podcast.
So you mentioned, Gina, you mentioned your Audit team. Who are some of the other key stakeholders involved in the vetting process? Maybe a Diversity team, CSR team? And were there major milestones for getting approval?
So the approval actually happened upfront, right? So when kind of walking Gina through it and then she obviously walked the executives through the idea and then we worked with the audit committee to get that final approval. And so that was where I said the approval process was. The rest of it was more about the execution, like, how do we go get this done right?
So how do we operationalize this? And that's where, you know, we called and pulled in the People team, right? Understanding like, okay, where do we have the concentration of our folks? Right. And so that was, you know, they were a big part of it. And like I said, the same thing with the Communications team. Right. In terms like, okay, how do we position ourselves or how do we position and talk about the fund itself? What is it? Right? And so there's the questions that come along with it. What are we trying to accomplish, why are we doing this and how do we expect driving impact? Right? So those are all things that we had to pull all the teams together to make sure that we're all on the same page as we get ready to launch the fund.
So you did your homework. You got up the nerve to pitch the idea to your CFO. You got approval from the C-suite, your board, your Audit committee, your Diversity team. You got approval for the idea. Tell us a bit about the manager selection process. What were some of the criteria you used to select an investment manager to partner with and manage this racial equity fund for you?
Yeah. So good question. So that actually came even before I went to Gina to get approval. And so as you know, having the concept in my in my head as to here's where I think we can make an impact. There was a lot of discussions with a lot of our banking partners, investment managers and just things like, hey, here's the idea that I have, how can we go execute? You know, what have you done in this space that can really help us be successful in meeting our objectives?
And so I spent countless hours and just, you know, on the phone just having these discussions with these different banking partners. And a lot of them were just kind of starting to think about it. But nobody really had a track record as to we've done this before or we can find a way to, you know, kind of take sort of like your idea and utilize already what we have. Right. Infrastructure to be able to achieve the goals. Right. And I think that's how we ended up with RBC GAM. They had a track record of 20 years right, doing impact investing. A different flavor of it, but here is something we could use, the infrastructure that we can use, to really get to our objectives. Right. And that's how I use that and I said like, well, if we're going to go execute this before I get approval, I have to make sure that we can actually make this happen.
That makes perfect sense. And here we are two and a half years later with your live racial equity fund and Access Capital just reached its 25th year anniversary, actually.
Awesome. Congratulations. A big milestone.
Thank you. You've been a big part of it. Let's go back to the initial allocation target. You talked a bit about what ServiceNow wanted to prioritize in terms of your impact goals geographically, demographically and thematically. But how has the portfolio evolved over time since that initial allocation?
So it actually hasn't changed much from the initial allocation. So, you know, we always targeted homeownership to be the primary investment that we would make. That's where we would focus on impact. And it kind of goes back to where can we maximize wealth creation? And that comes from homeownership. So we've had, I'd say, probably close to 85%, 90% of the portfolio just allocated to homeownership.
Right? You can imagine that's also, when you think about buying a home, you know, your largest need of capital is to buy your home. And so that's what we saw, that there's a big opportunity there. And then we also had, you know, a good percentage also of the remaining just focused on affordable rental housing units.
And then the other piece of it on small businesses. So being able to provide loans to small businesses, those either looking to expand their business or just to even, you know, start their business. So those are the two other areas that we focused on. And so it hasn't changed much. And as you can imagine, obviously homeownership is a long term. So it's not something that's, you know, turning over that often. And so that's why the allocation hasn't changed much since the beginning.
That makes sense. The homeownership key focus makes a lot of sense as you mentioned, the homeownership and equity in our residences being the number one source of wealth creation in America. Also, there's a nice tie in with homeownership and small business entrepreneurship, because many times the collateral a business owner will put up to get a small business loan is equity in a primary residence.
So they're inextricably linked.
Let's talk about some of the feedback you've had now that you've got two years plus of live investment in stories, what's some of the key feedback from your stakeholders so far?
So it's been, I'd say, a very positive, very positive feedback. And what we've focused on was being able to tell the stories, right? So focusing on impact, what type of impact are we having? Right. And so when we, you know, we do a qualitative review, you know, with Gina and other stakeholders and we just kind of walk through and just say, okay, so what does our allocation look like?
Right? Where are we having this this impact? And so that's what we walk through is like how many mortgages have we helped fund, how many rental units, how many small businesses have we provided capital to? And so providing that has been very impactful. You know, when we get the feedback from stakeholders that we're actually making a big difference.
But I think what's really resonated with the stakeholders and was one of our initial, you know, objectives, was to really target the low- to moderate-income homeowners, right? Because those are the ones that are highly marginalized, don't have access to capital or when they get access to capital, they either end up with predatory loans, right? Which sometimes they can't afford. And it doesn't lead to wealth creation, it actually leads more to wealth destruction. Right. So it kind of puts them in a worse place also. So I think being able to show part of that and when we look at things like homeownership, where essentially like almost 98% of the borrowers made, you know, less than 80% of the area's median income.
Right. And then all of, you know, 100% of all affordable housing units, about 2,300 of them, they're all you know, when you look at the make up, it's very low- to moderate-income. So making a difference on that end. And so those are some of the things that we focused on telling the stories. And then the feedback has been, you know, “I'm glad we did this, looks like we're making great, great strides.”
And then we also are being able to demonstrate, you know, quite a bit as to, you know, wealth creation. How much wealth are people creating? The borrower is creating, especially from a homeownership perspective. And, you know, there was a report that was put out, I think, you know, just a couple of months ago just showing that two years, two plus years that we've had this program in place or this fund in place, it's returned on average about, you know, almost $86,000-$87,000 for each homeowner.
Right. So they've built about 20% equity. And when I do the math in my head with about 360 mortgages, that's about $30 million in wealth creation. So being able to demonstrate that we’re actually having this impact has really solidified the support around the fund itself.
That's really compelling. And you mentioned the stories. I mean, the stories are really the proof, they’re the throughput of this portfolio to show that you actually are aligning balance sheet assets with those goals in a tangible way. Are there other specific stories that have resonated with you?
Yeah. So there's one small business in southern California and his name is Dan Lyons. And so he's you know, he'd been a pharmacist, he was a third-generation pharmacist in a family. This was in 2020 and he had just opened his own pharmacy. And that, like you said in the beginning, this was right at the beginning of COVID and so he is just starting this business. So he was just using a lot of his own capital to fund his new business.
And so he had gone to banks, tried to get loans, could not get loans. He went to the Small Business Administration, the SBA. They couldn't give any funding because he didn't have any numbers on his books to show for it because he had just started the business. And that's when, at the same time, that's when the fund launched in 2021, it's like we came through and he had just almost exhausted all his savings, just trying to keep his pharmacy alive.
And so when we launched the fund, now he was able to have access to capital. And so he got a $250,000 loan. And he says it actually saved his business and he actually was able to provide a really critical service to the people in his neighborhood because it was also a pretty low-income neighborhood.
And so this is where he is giving the COVID vaccinations. Right. So now people in the neighborhood that would probably have had to travel, you know, 15-20 miles away or even probably further to be able to get vaccinations. Now, they had it in their neighborhood. And so that's just one of those stories where it was not more of a financial, but you look at the broader impact, right, in the way he was able to impact his community and to just be able to get through that uncertainty of, you know, I've exhausted my savings. I can't do any marketing; I can't get any funding from the banks or from the government. And so this was almost like, you know, a last resort is like, hey, where else am I going to get funding?
Right? And so just, you know, above all that, I think that's the that's been one of the really compelling stories that's come across.
What an amazing story. It's so cool that you were able to have him come address the broad employee base at one of your town halls. And that story, it reminds me of the multiplier effect concept you mentioned earlier. There's the financial multiplier effect, but this sounds more like a human multiplier effect. You helped a business owner and that spread out into the community in a time of historical crisis.
I mean, that's just amazing.
Yeah, absolutely. And that's what, you know, when we say we want to make the world work for everyone, that's the whole part of it. Right. Kind of going back to that, you know, key theme, the purpose of why we're doing this, right. It's not just for the business owner, but it's just for the broader community.
Tim, we spent a good amount of time talking about the key stakeholders who are involved in vetting and approving this process and some of the feedback they've had. But what about the broader employee base? What's been the engagement with your fellow ServiceNow employees?
Yeah, so we actually had Dan Lyons come and speak to us at a town hall meeting. And just for him describing what he went through with his situation. And, you know, essentially he was at the end and he was almost closing his business. And the impact that he had, especially at that time, where like, you know, the need for vaccinations and just being able to provide those vaccinations to his community that could either not get access to them or access was going to be very, you know, it was going to be difficult to get to.
And so for the employees just being able to hear his story of the impact was very meaningful for a lot of them because they could actually relate to it. And even more importantly, is that they could see themselves in the community. Right? They could feel that this is actually happening in my community, right? So it could be any business that they had but this one was very specific, you know, to this particular community. So I think that really resonated with employees. And I got really positive feedback. And actually they're like, “We want more of that.” Right? It's like we want to hear more of those stories, right? Because it just drives a deeper connection and engagement with employees.
That deeper connection is amazing. It takes it away from just being a data point or a soundbite and shows a true human nature of it. That's fantastic.
Absolutely. It becomes more than just dollars, but just impact itself, right? Essentially you just show the human side of the impact that we're having.
You're putting your money where your mouth is. That's amazing. Again, Tim, that's a compelling story to be able to put a human face to it and take it out of the statistical and really see that you had an impact on an individual and a community is just fantastic. So you've gotten great feedback. It's met your investment needs so far, it's working towards your goal of helping build thriving communities in predominately Black areas in America.
Looking back now, what, if anything, would you do differently if you had to do it again?
I'd say I would have done it sooner. Right. And part of that is just, you know, there are certain things that actually trigger action. But this was actually an opportunity that was just in front of me. Right. And sometimes you just have an opportunity that’s just sitting right in front of you and sometimes you just don't see it. And being able to leverage the balance sheet in the way we did.
But I'd say probably what I’d do differently? I'd probably ask for more money. You know, $100 million is a big number, but it's like just seeing how impactful it's been and just the level of need that's out there. Right. I think having even a larger commitment, I think we could continue to make even more impact.
Right. So I think that's the one thing I'd say, but I don't think I'd really change anything about the structure itself and the areas that we decided to target. I think those are the right areas we decided to target and it's bearing out in just some of the impact stories I just shared with you.
And you know, what we're seeing from a wealth creation perspective with home loans and just being able to provide affordable rental units for folks that may otherwise not be able to get those opportunities to live better lives for themselves and for their families.
So invest sooner and invest more. That’s the key takeaway?
Exactly. There's a lot of need.
There's no doubt. There's no doubt about that. Now, Tim, I know you've been a big advocate of this concept of targeted place-based impact investments within the balance sheet amongst your peers in the Treasury community. What advice would you give, would you have, for other Treasury teams who might be looking to do something like this right now?
And conversely, what might you tell a team that hasn't yet considered some type of investment like this?
Great question. So but, you know, like you said, big advocate and I always take the opportunity every time I can get it just to talk about impact. Right. And that's one thing that whether I’m talking with my peers or when we have peer group meetings or whatever the case might be, I always find that opportunity, and I know a couple of my peers have actually kind of jumped in, just a few months ago, with similar types of investments.
But what I'd say is, hey, you might not work for a company that can actually make a $100 million investment. Right. But what I'd say is that, you could still make a difference. It doesn't have to be $100 million, right? It could be, $5 million, $10 million. I think you just have to be creative about it.
Like I said, it's like I didn't know at the beginning, I was like, well, I don't know, but I have an idea. And so it was like, well, what should that look like? And so it's just having the conversations and figuring out like, here's where I think we're well positioned as a company, you know, to be able to either become part of a, you know, a bigger cause, right.
Like, hey, we could just pool together with, you know, with different entities. Maybe that's how you find a way to make an impact. But sometimes it's sitting right in front of you. Like I said, this was sitting right there, and I just did not see it right? And so just be on the lookout for different areas.
So I think that's what I'd probably say. And then just get out there and just understand, where are some of these opportunities? Where are the inequalities? Right? Because it's a structural issue, a lack of access to capital or limited access to capital, it's been a structural issue for a long time. I think educating yourself on what are some of the key drivers of, you know, these inequalities. I think that's how I opened my mind up as to, you know, where can we make an impact? Right? And just spending time just talking to, you know, like to your peers that are either thinking about it, have done it, you know. And like I said, I'm always willing to, you know, have conversations because we can show the impact that we've had so far. Right. And then also, we've already gone through the process, going through the approvals, going through the sleepless nights in terms of how do I go sell this or how do I even put this together.
You don't have to recreate the wheel, right. And so kind of sharing, you know, I'm always happy to share my experiences on, you know, on how to go about it. Right? So I think that would be my call to action.
Well, that's fantastic. I think ending the podcast with a call to action feels like the right way to wrap up this conversation, which clearly we could dedicate a two-hour episode to and not even really scratch the surface on the process you went through, the investments you funded, and the throughput and the proof points. But Tim, thank you very much for your time today.
I hope our conversation has helped inform our listeners and the investment community as to just what really is possible with place-based impact investing and how it can help revitalize the communities that need it the most.
Thanks, Brian. Obviously, I'm really passionate about just, you know, just this topic in general. And it's really good to have this time to have this conversation. And like I said, I'm always open. And, you know, its great to have just, you know, discussions about, you know, how you can also make an impact.
Well, thanks again, Tim. Your passion clearly came through and we appreciate your time. Thank you also to our listeners for tuning in to this episode of The Navigator. It's been our pleasure. To listen to past episodes and be notified when future episodes are released, follow The Navigator on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.